Yes, there were also some few local Baltic persons who betrayed their people by serving as jailers for Soviet occupation forces. In Estonia, these were mostly common criminals who had been released from prison by the Soviets for just such a purpose, or who were social misfits with a deep resentment against ordinary people, which resentment Soviet occupation rule harnessed for its own purposes. I imagine that Lithuanian experience was similar. But whether in Lithuania or Estonia, the occupation itself came from Russia, was directed and ruled from Russia, was overwhelmingly manned by Russians, sent its victims to slave camps in Russia, and did it all in the name of the Soviet national anthem whose first two lines said, “Unbreakable bond of freeborn republics / put together by great Russia.” And yes, overwhelmingly spoke Russian. As for the difficulty in numbering Stalin’s GULAG victims, see “Appendix: How Many?” in Anne Applebaum’s 2004 Pulitzer Prize winning book, “GULAG – a History.” Europe is full of knowledge about Hitler's concentration camps, and rightly so. It also needs to know what Soviet Russians did to Europeans, and Russians need to know what their countrymen did to their neighbors.

Great, putting children through a haunted house. That's realistic. You can never understand conditions until you at least adjust to them or understand the events leading up to them. You've given Stalin a new face so that when he pops up again, nobody will recognize him. Well, us social misfits will and will sleep happily in our corner, with a piece of bread and cup of water. You're dern straight that our kind don't like the ordinary. We're the reactions to the conditions. Thanks a lot for taking over guys. You've made everything peachy.

Marzipan6, You still can't let go of the past - can you? If you take your anger to your grave I would say that you wasted your life - unless of course, your life's purpose is to whip yourself daily with anti-Russian anger. Most people Stalin shipped to Siberia did not end up in Gulag concentration camps - although you like to leave that impression to the reader. Some of my relatives were also shipped to Siberia. Being shipped to Siberia during the late 1940s didn't mean that the person was sent to a Gulag prison camp. My relatives were part of a shipment of Estonians (including whole families) who ended up somewhere east of Tomsk. When the train cars arrived, the guards opened the doors and told the people to get out. They were handed saws, axes, etc and told to build their own homes and start farming. Life wasn't all that tough and most of them came back to Estonia by 1956. Some Estonians who married local girls decided to stay on in Siberia. Time to let go of your burden - unless, of course, you get paid for posting your anti-Russian views.

Kihnu, as I have suggested to you before, don’t give up your day job to go full-time into psychology; it’s not your strong suite. But perhaps you could explain to us why Jewish people insisting that the Holocaust be remembered and why Nazi war criminals, to the very last man standing, be brought to answer for their crimes in a court of law is neither a case of Jews living in the past nor being angry, but rather, of them trying to secure their future against similar outrages in the future. A few days ago was international Holocaust Day – was anyone angry? Was anyone living in the past? Or were Jewish people instead concerned about the present, and about the future of their as yet unborn generations? Yet when Baltic people apply exactly the same criteria in regard to their also horrific holocaust, visited on them by Communist Russia, they (and I) are apparently living in the past and motivated by anger. Please explain. Kihnu, most of the approximately 10,000 people who were deported from Estonia in the first mass deportation of June 1941 died in Siberia, regardless of whether they were dispatched to a GULAG camp or to a virgin forest with nothing but a few saws and hammers given to them to with which to build dwellings (they weren’t even builders, but mostly professional people), and the Siberian winter just a few short months away. In the several even larger mass deportations following the war, plenty were sent to the actual GULAG. “Life wasn’t all that tough,” you say. Depends what you compare it with. Arrogantly, illegally, brutally ripping families apart in the middle of the night with about 45 minutes notice to pack is a life sentence of pain, even for the minority who did not die. Russians under Stalin might have been used to that kind of barbarity, and considered it normal and “not so tough”. Russia’s European neighbors never did, never have and never will. My views are not anti Russian, Kihnu, but pro civilization. There is a big, big difference.

Marzipan6 I also disagree with the Jewish over-emphasis on the Holocaust. Seems to me that there is a political and financial agenda in continually dredging up memories of that tragic period of Jewish history. However, Stalin's removal of about 14,000 Estonians to Siberia (most of whom, I suspect, survived - as did my relatives) is not comparable with the German slaughter of 6 million Jews or 30 million Russians.

Kihnu, according to the Estonian Ministry of Foreign affairs, over 10,000 people were deported in June 1941 most of whom died in Russian custody, a further 20,000 in March 1949 a large number of whom died, and miscellaneous hundreds in subsequent years. Together these amounted to more than 4% of the entire population. True, these barbarities are not comparable in scale to those which Germans accomplished across all of Europe. But they are absolutely incomparable to anything which Estonia has ever experienced before or since, in all its long history. Furthermore, Soviet crimes in Estonia differ from German crimes throughout Europe inasmuch as Moscow, unlike Berlin, denies all responsibility for them, and Moscow, unlike Berlin, has not brought even one, single, solitary person who committed crimes against humanity under the Soviet flag to answer for their actions in a court of law. As a result, Russia’s relations with its neighbours remain poisoned to a degree that Germany’s relations are not, and because of its chronic condition of denial Russia continues to pose a threat to others which Germany does not. It is the future that is important; Russia's Soviet era crimes continue to hang like an albatross around its neck, and continue to curse its future.

Marzipan6: "But they are absolutely incomparable to anything which Estonia has ever experienced before or since, in all its long history." Quite a stretch there considering what the Germans did to the Estonians "in all its long history". I believe you also must know that the German Teutonic Order brought four centuries of hell upon the Estonian peoples: whippings, brandings, killings, tortures, enslavement, and all the other "blessings" the Germans are so fond to dishing out to their conquered peoples. "...Russia's Soviet era crimes continue to hang like an albatross around its neck, and continue to curse its future." Not at all. I can assure you that Russian leaders and the Russian people don't agonize over what Stalin did to the Estonians. I doubt the average Russian even knows, or cares to know, about Estonia. I can also assure you that Russia will never fall to her knees to beg forgiveness from the three potato-chip nations of Estonia, Latvia and lithuania. The staff at RT must have a special liking for you since they deleted about 75% of my Jan 29 14:02 response to you. You should send them flowers.

Kihnu, medieval Germany’s rule of Estonia was a harsh feudal oppression. Yet at no time were Estonian people en masse sent into foreign slavery nor the country overrun by hundreds of thousands of foreign colonists intent on reducing the native population into a minority in its own land and socially engineering the nation out of existence. Only Soviet Russia managed those kinds of outrages against Estonia. You show a traditional Russian response when confronted with Russian crimes against humanity: you mitigate the crimes by comparing these with what someone else supposedly did. You write, “I can assure you that Russian leaders and the Russian people don't agonize over what Stalin did to the Estonians. I doubt the average Russian even knows, or cares to know, about Estonia. I can also assure you that Russia will never fall to her knees to beg forgiveness from the three potato-chip nations of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.” Of course Russian leaders show complete irresponsibility in regard to crimes which their compatriots committed under the Soviet flag, and of course the average Russian cares little if anything about the “three potato-chip nations of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania” (an interesting phrase, that, which also seems to illuminate your actual attitude towards those countries). And precisely that’s problem, Kihnu, and remains a problem regardless of whether or not Russians recognise it as such. Russia’s neighbours note the arrogance, contempt and disdain in which Russia holds them, they doubt that Russia’s attitude towards them has changed from Soviet times, and therefore have zero trust and little respect towards such a neighbour. This attitude permeates to the wider European and trans-Atlantic community and handicaps Russia’s credibility and foreign policy throughout the world. Russia’s determined refusal to bring appropriate closure to its Soviet era crimes continues to hang as an albatross around its neck, and continues to curse its future.

Some people really want to forgot theyr dirty war crimes and live like nothing happened.

Mass migration into a country is an inevitability when a nation becomes a member of an association of nations, be it USSR or EU. UK has been experiencing such a phenomenon during their Commonwealth era (millions from the Third World) and when she became a member of the EU. I read somewhere that over 1.5 million East Europeans have poured into the UK, including thousands of Estonians. I understand that you, and most other Estonians, continue to complain about the immigration of non-Estonians during the Soviet industrialization of the country, but this migration of peoples is not a crime committed against the Estonian peoples. Wait till the immigration of peoples from the Third World kicks in. "Only Soviet Russia managed those kinds of outrages against Estonia. " I can see that you have taken upon yourself the burden of carrying Estonian victimhood on your shoulders. If you enjoy such a life, more power to you; however, don't expect the Russians to join you in your misery. Russia will not agonize over Estonia, nor will they apologize to Estonia. Instead, the Russians will continue to invest heavily in Estonia. If you ever are in Tallinn again, go to the "Cigar House" on Raekoja Platz and have a great Cuban cigar - that is, if you don't mind relaxing in a Russian establishment. "...seems to illuminate your actual attitude towards those countries" - What do you suppose my "actual attitude towards those countries" is????????

Kihnu, the contents of your post are uniformly remarkable. You compare the EU with the SU. A little detail you forget is that one is a free association based on a legal decision of sovereign nations with the democratic endorsement of the countries’ own people, while for the Baltics the second was an illegal and brutal rape in which they themselves had no say. Secondly, the EU’s and Britain’s immigration policies are also the product of legal decisions of their own sovereign governments and they themselves maintain ultimate control of immigration, assimilation, citizenship and language policy. In the SU, the Baltics were powerless occupied countries with absolutely no say over their own immigration or language policies nor much of anything else within their borders. They were systematically swamped by huge waves of foreigners who not only were entirely unassimilated but who had no wish to be assimilated, and whose purpose was to russify them culturally, linguistically and demographically until the native population became a minority in their own lands, and until all hope of restoration of national sovereignty would have been destroyed. Meanwhile, large numbers of their own people were sent, en masse, into foreign slavery. Comparing any aspect of EU membership with the Soviet experience is simply ridiculous, and trying to justify the one on the basis of the other is even worse. I certainly love Russian music, and have a good collection of it which I play often. Please do not justify Russia’s criminality of the past and its brazen irresponsibility of the present on the assumed psychology of those who protest. Russia thoroughly deserves the reputation that it has in the Baltics, in Eastern Europe and beyond, having earned it both through its past crimes and its continuing refusal to bring appropriate closure to those crimes. And it will keep that deserved reputation until Russia genuinely changes.

Marzipan6, I didn't compare USSR with EU - I just mentioned that when nations merge in unions, migration of peoples takes place. You also claim that the Russians "are entirely unassimilated but who had no wish to be assimilated". This is probably true, but then again the Russian have the same view of Estonians. I suppose Estonia is in a race to see which group of people has more babies - a "baby race". You continual complaints about "Russian criminality"

Marzipan6, Continued from prior post: Your continual complaints about "Russian criminality" must at times be quite exhausting for you emotionally. The only time you seem to post on this board is to complain about how mean the Russians have been to the Estonians. This same "I am a victim of Russian meanness" illness poisons Mikheil Saakashvili as well, and has brought the Georgian people nothing but grief. Sad to see that the Estonians have been reduced to a society of complainers about "Russian meanness". The Estonians have a serious demographic problem. Not only do the Russians have a higher birth rate, but more and more of them are coming to Estonia. Narva, Kohtla-Järve, Silamäe, are totally Russian. The region of Ida-Virumaa is slowly becoming Russian as well. Certain areas of Tallinn are overwhelmingly Russian. Incessant excessive complaining about past Russian transgressions will only fuel mistrust between the two peoples.

Kihnu, again you’re letting your imagination run riot about me, reaching some quite wrong conclusions and more importantly, guaranteeing misunderstand of the actual substance of my posts. Let me put your mind at ease by saying that hardly any of my large circle of professional and personal acquaintances have ever heard me utter a syllable about either Estonia or Russia. I reserve observations on those matters to the comment pages of RT, in response to factual inaccuracies that appear both in articles and in readers' comments on these subjects. I do it because I believe it is good if Russia and its apologists are disabused of fantasies that they often mistake for Baltic facts and history, and come to grips with realities. In connection with your last two posts, I express absolute astonishment at your suggestion that Russians think “Estonians are unassimilated.” Kihnu, perhaps you have forgotten that Estonia is the land of Estonians. It is their country. They belong there since thousands of years already, and do not need to be “assimilated”. What Russians complain about is not that Estonians are not “assimilated”, but that Estonia is not sufficiently russified for their liking, and that is a very arrogant position for them to take. Russians somehow think that they have an inherent personal right to Estonia today, just as they assume that Soviet Russia had some kind of inherent national right to Estonia, and that Soviet crimes against Estonia don’t need to be repented because Soviets also abused Russians at home. These are crazy ideas, and their impact is all the more toxic because most Russians seem to think it is not crazy at all. By the way, as far as I am aware there is no mass Russian immigration to Estonia, as the government simply will not allow it. There is very healthy Russian tourism, though, and that is welcomed by all. North-eastern areas of Estonia have long had a large Russian population due to Soviet-era colonization.

I get an impression that Estonians tend to wake up in the morning and put their anti-Russian blinders on before they venture out on the streets of Tallinn, Parnu or Rakvere. They wander the streets pretending that they don't hear and see Russians, or they stare at them with their typical "Eesti viha" (Estonian anger). I am quite aware of this phenomenon. I recall one time when I went to a Tallinn liquor store and asked for Beloi Aist (Russian brandy) in Estonian. The sales lady screamed at me to ask for it by the Estonian name "Valge Kurg". I inquired whether I should then also ask for Johnny Walker by the Estonian words Juhan Kõndia? She didn't respond - just stared at me. I just walked out of the store. The continual Estonian anger towards the Russians living in Estonia and their continual crying over past injustices bodes ill for the nation because Russians will never leave Estonia. Estonians have no choice but to learn to live with them. The anti-Russian hostility exhibited by the Estonians will only exasperate the problem even more.

Marzipan6, you posted: "What Russians complain about is not that Estonians are not “assimilated”, but that Estonia is not sufficiently russified for their liking, and that is a very arrogant position for them to take." I disagree with you. The Russians I know don't care to "russify" Estonia - however, they do want Estonia to give them their basic human rights as legal residents of the country and to be treated with dignity. For example, they don't want an Estonian doctor to throw their child out of the office because he did not speak Estonian, or have Estonian staff insult them in restaurants and stores. No American doctor would dare to throw a young patient out of the office because he or she could not speak English - that would be a national scandal. I will give you a personal experience I had with one of these Estonian "patriots". I used to walk my dog with an elderly Russian lady (about 80) who also walked her dog. One evening we strolled past an apartment building near the old Palace Hotel. Suddenly out of the door way stormed an Estonian guy. He was livid and began screaming at the old lady to "go back to Russia". Apparently, he didn't notice me and when I told him to "get lost" he ran back into the hallway - but, he sure was willing to take on an 80-year old Russian lady. The lady told me that these personal insults from Estonians are quite common. The Estonians and Russians are headed for conflict if they can not resolve the current problems between the two people. There already are fights between Estonians and Russian youths at schools and sporting events.

Regarding your story about the Estonian sales lady’s reaction to you’re your asking for “Valge Kurg”, perhaps she remembers trying to buy a postage stamp in Tallinn, her own capital city, during Soviet times, asking for it in Estonian, the language of the land, and being told in response by an illegal Russian immigrant behind the counter not to speak a dog’s language. Precisely such incidents happened rather frequently, as you well know. This does not justify the lady’s reaction today, but in view of Russia’s failure – indeed, its point-blank refusal – to bring healing and closure to the wounds of the past, it is not only understandable, but inevitable. You responding to the lady with your comments about Johnny Walker conveyed the message to her that you don’t understand the issue, don’t want to understand the issue, and that even if you were to ever understand the issue you wouldn’t care. It simply confirmed to her all the painful things that she learned about Russians from her experience of her country’s long occupation.

Kihnu, again a little reality check is needed. Estonians were in the tsarist empire for 200 years, experiencing both mad Tsars and “normal” Tsars and both forced russification and times of enlightenment and development, and it ended with a desperate War of Liberation against both Russia and Germany. Yet at the end of it all, there was no inherent anger or hatred against Russians. In fact, Estonians if anything valued aspects of their shared past with Russia. Anti-Russianism is not inherent or traditional in Estonia. But then out of Russia came the Soviet occupation. It was so savage and murderous and so contemptuous of even common human values let alone Estonian national values that Estonians were traumatized beyond description. That occupation sought nothing less than the permanent destruction of their country on every level, and it came extremely close to achieving just that. And now comes post Soviet Russia, white-washing itself from all responsibility of what passed before, repeating Stalin’s most cynical lies about the Baltic past, hindering the Baltics at every turn as they try to heal the wounds of Soviet occupation, endlessly criticizing them internationally and claiming some kind of special privileges and special rights for Russians in the Baltics. This kind of attitude prevents healing from happening, Kihnu, and casts a deep shadow from the past over the future. You write of “Eesti viha” (Estonian anger). What you really see is “Eesti valu” (Estonian pain), “Eesti mure” (Estonian worry), and though few would put it in those words, “Eesti hirm” (Estonian fear). All of this is the result of Moscow’s anti-Baltic policies of the past and present. Any Russian who genuinely disassociates himself from those evil policies also brings himself out from beneath this shadow in the eyes of their Estonian acquaintances, and is accepted on his own human merits. And any who don’t, aren’t. Don’t blame Estonians for this, Kihnu. Blame past and present Moscow.

Kihnu, the Palace Hotel incident you described is sad. And the behavior of that one Estonian doctor that you described was stupid, and was judged as such by most Estonians. But for every such example, there are many more of the following kind, which I have described before: Two years ago I stayed at a guesthouse in Tartu. I knew the landlady from previously staying there, but this time she looked particularly stressed. She explained that a group of three Russian railway workers from the Estonian border town of Narva had just left that morning, after staying for about a week. When they arrived, the first thing they demanded – demanded, mind you – was that the landlady pull down the Estonian flag from in front of the premises, because they said “this offended them.” When the landlady politely refused, the Russian guests, who woke up each morning very early to go to work, retaliated by tuning every radio and television that they could access in the premises to Russian language stations, and turned them up to full volume, thereby waking everyone in the house to the sound of Russian. They also delighted in blasting transmissions of the Russian national anthem at full volume through the premises, and went out of their way to behave as obnoxiously as they could in other public areas of the guesthouse. By the time they left, the landlady, who was normally a healthy and athletic person, was reduced to a bundle of nerves, and when I arrived she had just returned from the doctor’s with some blood pressure medication. No one’s human rights are violated in Estonia, Kihnu. The granting of citizenship to illegal colonists by naturalization rather than automatically is not a violation of human rights. Nor are any Russian or other non-citizens’ human rights violated. You also write of Russians’ sense of dignity. Too often that sense of dignity seems to depend on Russians’ colonial privileges being maintained, and this simply will not happen in a free Estonia.